eryxias(厄里克夏斯)-第4部分
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we might reply that this would be the case if disease were absent from our
bodies and either never came to them at all or went away again as soon as
it appeared； and we may therefore conclude that medicine is the science
which is useful for getting rid of disease。 But if we are further asked；
What is that from which； if we were free； we should have no need of
wealth？ can we give an answer？ If we have none； suppose that we
restate the question thus：If a man could live without food or drink； and
yet suffer neither hunger nor thirst； would he want either money or
anything else in order to supply his needs？
ERYXIAS： He would not。
SOCRATES： And does not this apply in other cases？ If we did not
want for the service of the body the things of which we now stand in need；
and heat and cold and the other bodily sensations were unperceived by us；
there would be no use in this so…called wealth； if no one； that is； had any
necessity for those things which now make us wish for wealth in order that
we may satisfy the desires and needs of the body in respect of our various
wants。 And therefore if the possession of wealth is useful in ministering
to our bodily wants； and bodily wants were unknown to us； we should not
need wealth； and possibly there would be no such thing as wealth。
ERYXIAS： Clearly not。
SOCRATES： Then our conclusion is； as would appear； that wealth is
what is useful to this end？
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Eryxias once more gave his assent； but the small argument
considerably troubled him。
SOCRATES： And what is your opinion about another question：
Would you say that the same thing can be at one time useful and at another
useless for the production of the same result？
ERYXIAS： I cannot say more than that if we require the same thing
to produce the same result； then it seems to me to be useful； if not； not。
SOCRATES： Then if without the aid of fire we could make a brazen
statue； we should not want fire for that purpose； and if we did not want it；
it would be useless to us？ And the argument applies equally in other
cases。
ERYXIAS： Clearly。
SOCRATES： And therefore conditions which are not required for the
existence of a thing are not useful for the production of it？
ERYXIAS： Of course not。
SOCRATES： And if without gold or silver or anything else which we
do not use directly for the body in the way that we do food and drink and
bedding and houses；if without these we could satisfy the wants of the
body； they would be of no use to us for that purpose？
ERYXIAS： They would not。
SOCRATES： They would no longer be regarded as wealth； because
they are useless； whereas that would be wealth which enabled us to obtain
what was useful to us？
ERYXIAS： O Socrates； you will never be able to persuade me that
gold and silver and similar things are not wealth。 But I am very strongly
of opinion that things which are useless to us are not wealth； and that the
money which is useful for this purpose is of the greatest use； not that these
things are not useful towards life； if by them we can procure wealth。
SOCRATES： And how would you answer another question？ There
are persons； are there not； who teach music and grammar and other arts for
pay； and thus procure those things of which they stand in need？
ERYXIAS： There are。
SOCRATES： And these men by the arts which they profess； and in
exchange for them； obtain the necessities of life just as we do by means of
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ERYXIAS
gold and silver？
ERYXIAS： True。
SOCRATES： Then if they procure by this means what they want for
the purposes of life； that art will be useful towards life？ For do we not
say that silver is useful because it enables us to supply our bodily needs？
ERYXIAS： We do。
SOCRATES： Then if these arts are reckoned among things useful；
the arts are wealth for the same reason as gold and silver are； for； clearly；
the possession of them gives wealth。 Yet a little while ago we found it
difficult to accept the argument which proved that the wisest are the
wealthiest。 But now there seems no escape from this conclusion。
Suppose that we are asked； 'Is a horse useful to everybody？' will not our
reply be； 'No； but only to those who know how to use a horse？'
ERYXIAS： Certainly。
SOCRATES： And so； too； physic is not useful to every one； but only
to him who knows how to use it？
ERYXIAS： True。
SOCRATES： And the same is the case with everything else？
ERYXIAS： Yes。
SOCRATES： Then gold and silver and all the other elements which
are supposed to make up wealth are only useful to the person who knows
how to use them？
ERYXIAS： Exactly。
SOCRATES： And were we not saying before that it was the business
of a good man and a gentleman to know where and how anything should
be used？
ERYXIAS： Yes。
SOCRATES： The good and gentle； therefore will alone have profit
from these things； supposing at least that they know how to use them。
But if so； to them only will they seem to be wealth。 It appears； however；
that where a person is ignorant of riding； and has horses which are useless
to him； if some one teaches him that art； he makes him also richer； for
what was before useless has now become useful to him； and in giving him
knowledge he has also conferred riches upon him。
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ERYXIAS
ERYXIAS： That is the case。
SOCRATES： Yet I dare be sworn that Critias will not be moved a
whit by the argument。
CRITIAS： No； by heaven； I should be a madman if I were。 But
why do you not finish the argument which proves that gold and silver and
other things which seem to be wealth are not real wealth？ For I have
been exceedingly delighted to hear the discourses which you have just
been holding。
SOCRATES： My argument； Critias （I said）； appears to have given
you the same kind of pleasure which you might have derived from some
rhapsode's recitation of Homer； for you do not believe a word of what has
been said。 But come now； give me an answer to this question。 Are not
certain things useful to the builder when he is building a house？
CRITIAS： They are。
SOCRATES： And would you say that those things are useful which
are employed in house building；stones and bricks and beams and the like；
and also the instruments with which the builder built the house； the beams
and stones which they provided； and again the instruments by which these
were obtained？
CRITIAS： It seems to me that they are all useful for building。
SOCRATES： And is it not true of every art； that not only the
materials but the instruments by which we procure them and without
which the work could not go on； are useful for that art？
CRITIAS： Certainly。
SOCRATES： And further； the instruments by which the instruments
are procured； and so on； going back from stage to stage ad infinitum；are
not all these； in your opinion； necessary in order to carry out the work？
CRITIAS： We may fairly suppose such to be the case。
SOCRATES： And if a man has food and drink and clothes and the
other things which are useful to the body； would he need gold or silver or
any other means by which he could procure that which he now has？
CRITIAS： I do not think so。
SOCRATES： Then you consider that a man never wants any of these
things for the use of the body？
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CRITIAS： Certainly not。
SOCRATES： And if they appear useless to this end； ought they not
always to appear useless？ For we have already laid down the principle
that things cannot be at one time useful and at another time not； in the
same process。
CRITIAS： But in that respect your argument and mine are the same。
For you maintain if they are useful to a certain end； they can never become
useless； whereas I say that in order to accomplish some results bad things
are needed； and good for others。
SOCRATES： But can a bad thing be used to carry out a good
purpose？
CRITIAS： I should say not。
SOCRATES： And we call those actions good which a man does for
the sake of virtue？
CRITIAS： Yes。
SOCRATES： But can a man learn any kind of knowledge which is
imparted by word of mouth if he is wholly deprived of the sense of
hearing？
CRITIAS： Certainly not； I think。
SOCRATES： And will not hearing be useful for virtue； if virtue is
taught by hearing and we u
